Thursday, June 7, 2012

Time to put up or shut up.......

     This definitely wasn’t a planned post.  This contribution, as it were, was triggered by a conversation I had with my wife just this morning.

     First off, I feel it’s very important for me to relay that I know I’m not finished with the MAP (Male Action Plan) there are still many things I need to keep improving on.  On the flip side, I also feel – when I’m honest with myself – that there are many ‘shit tests’ that I’ve been failing over and over in my marriage.  I’ve been reacting the same way to some of these for so long, I honestly probably didn’t recognize them as shit tests.

     I also feel it’s important to give a bit of background, even though it may have been addressed in previous posts.

     My wife is the “low drive” spouse.  There are no emotional or physical affairs involved. My wife also has some issues from her past that even she acknowledges now effect our relationship, especially sexually – honestly in almost any form of physical affection.

     In the past we would have ‘discussions’ about this and she lumped all our “issues” into the “sex thing”. That used to piss me off to no end. Many times these discussions would end with my wife saying something to the effect of;

     “I don’t know what to tell you.  That’s how I’ve always been.  If you are unhappy, then maybe you need to make a change.”

     In essence, in the past, she has basically told me that if I was unhappy, then I needed to leave.

     Of course my reaction was always the wrong one.

     That being said, there haven’t been many “sex” discussions in recent memory.  I’ve simply done my best to change the way I act and react.  I’m much less passive with our sex life and it has improved – greatly.

     However there have been two areas that never seem to change.

     One is blowjobs.  Now readers may believe me or not, and that’s your right, but to honest – Blowjobs just aren’t a big deal to me.  They never really have been.  Don’t get me wrong – I definitely enjoy them.  But in previous relationships, I used to actually get them.

     One thing that has intimidated by wife (for lack of a better term) and also influenced by things in her past, is my size. This definitely isn’t a brag post at all.  If I could sell a couple of inches, I gladly would.  Compounded by the fact my wife has a rather small mouth, well you do the math.

     It’s sad to admit, but I received my first real blowjob from my wife last year.  It was spurred by her losing a bet in front of a friend. 

     What I learned about blowjobs is that they aren’t a big deal when you are getting them regularly or your partner is at least offering to give them.  That’s the rub for me.  If I KNEW my wife would give me one if I asked, I probably would hardly EVER ask for one.  There are simply other things I enjoy more.  But when I know the odds of getting one are low – human nature kicks in – so of course it becomes ‘more important’.

     The other issue is the good old stand by – the hand job.  I’ll be upfront here, if I was getting these, the blowjob ‘issue’ (as it were) wouldn’t be an issue at all.  To me, there is just something very intimate about my wife touching me.  Hell, what man doesn’t want his wife to touch his penis? Duh.

     But again, past experiences have influenced this.  Add to that a husband who doesn’t SPECIFICALLY bring up this (that would be me for those keeping score) as an issue, and this is where we end up.

     Now that I’ve got that out of the way, time to get on with the story.

     The conversation started about something involving our child.  Something rather ‘small’ in the grand scheme of things, but it spurred a conversation anyway.  In the past my wife has told me to “pick my battles” regarding this appearance issue with our child, and for the most part I’ve agreed.  If you’re a parent of a teenager, you can probably relate to this.  However this morning the roles were reversed.  When I told her this morning to “pick her battles” she obviously didn’t like her own words used against her.

     As she tends to do, she said her peace, then effectively tried to end the discussion.  Most times I would let it slide. This morning, I simply would not let it go.  I called her on it. I wasn’t a total dick about it, but I let her know that when a husband and wife try to communicate, one party simply can’t say their peace then move on.  It doesn’t work like that.

     Voices were not raised.  I made sure I never got upset.  I stayed in control.  And eventually when I brought up affection, she immediately lumped everything under the “Sex Umbrella”.  When I let her know that it wasn’t just sex, that there was more to it – well she wanted to conveniently keep it lumped under “sex”.

     I FINALLY told her that I didn’t appreciate her always putting it “on me” by telling me in essence “If you aren’t happy, then maybe you need to make a change.”

     So I told her that I’m meeting my demands as a husband.  So maybe the question should be;

     “If you don’t want to be my wife, then maybe you need to make a change.  None of the things I’m asking for are anything out of the way for a husband to ask of his wife.”

     The discussion ended, she started cleaning house and I left for work.  As I drove to work it hit me.

     I did it.  I basically called her on her shit.  I called her on the fact there was nothing wrong with ME for wanting these things from my WIFE. 

     The odd part?  I’m not stressed out really. I’m not worried about losing my wife or family. Do I want a divorce? No, I don’t.  But I’ve realized that the only way I’m going to get a healthy marriage with my wife is to call her on her shit.  Either she will make an effort to meet my needs, or she won’t.  Simple as that.

     This has been a MAJOR shit test in my marriage for years and I didn’t even know I was being tested, much less failing it miserably.

     Will my wife make an effort?  I honestly don’t know.  I can’t MAKE her do anything.  But I’ve decided that I will SPECIFICALLY ASK for what I want from her.  I’m not talking whips and chains and horse whips.  Pretty plain jane, vanilla stuff for most couples in fact.

     Will it work?  I don’t know.  And for the first time I realize that I can’t ignore my way past it, I can’t wish for it to change, and I truly can’t control what she does or doesn’t do in the end.

     My wife has things she needs to deal with.  Things from her past, that she’s never really dealt with.  She will either deal with them and move on, or she won’t.

     My wife likes to say;

     “I’m just not an affectionate person, you knew that when you married me.”

     Fact is, she was very affectionate with me in the beginning of our relationship.  I’ve also realized (and it’s a big break- through for me at least) that it’s double-edged sword for me.

     Early in our relationship and marriage, when my wife showed me SIMPLE, REGULAR physical affection, the other things she didn’t do simply weren’t a big deal.

     I know MANY may disagree, that’s fine.  This is my marriage and my happiness – no one else’s.  I know realize that. EVERYONE is different.

     For me, if my wife give me regular, simple physical affection:

     A kiss for no reason – Not counting during sex, leading up to sex – or when one of us is leaving.  I regularly initiate kissing at random times  - but it can’t be one-sided.

     A touch – it doesn’t have to be sexual. Touch is an amazing thing.  When I am getting touched by my partner – it makes me feel wanted and loved. It’s as simple as that – for me.

     Maybe it goes against the common “Men are less emotional and affectionate” grain.  I honestly don’t give a shit.  I’ve finally realized this isn’t about other men or women – it’s about myself and my wife.

     The kicker in all this - the difference in my marriage, my situation from all most all the other examples I see – is that my wife is perfectly fine with our marriage as is.  She’s not looking for more.  She’s not “ripe for an affair”.  That’s just how she has let herself be.
     In my ignorance, over the years of our marriage – I’ve let her thing this is NORMAL for us – by me NOT saying anything or showing action to the contrary.

     Well late or not, that has changed.

     So I guess all I can say is wish me luck.  Either this will continue to be a blog about improving myself as a person, as a man – and in turn improving my marriage – or it will turn into a new chapter in my life.

     Sure that thought is scary. But I’ve realized that it’s not so scary because I’m afraid of losing anything. The scariest part was putting myself out there, and letting my wife know where I stand.  Letting her know that things will change, and hopefully that means with her as my wife.

     I know the thought of losing your family is scary guys.  For the longest time I simply ‘kept on keeping on’ because I’m a Father.  The last thing I wanted to be was a “Weekend Dad”.  Well my child is only a few years away from being a legal adult. It’s about time I started being a true Father.  It’s time to set an example of what a man should be. 




  1. nice may have found the piece of the puzzle. good luck.

  2. I've had the same issues with my wife, and I was so gullible that I believed everything she said, from "I want to have the desire to have sex, I just don't" to "All you ever talk about is sex" Not anymore my friend. I'm taking all that frustration and using it positively to effect a change in myself. If she doesn't want me, BY god I will make sure someone does. I've also stopped taking bullshit reasons not to have sex with me for a final. I'm getting more sex now than I have in a long while.

  3. Jeez man, I could have wrote this post today! If you haven't read the "Five Love Languages" you should, it helps define how our emotional cup is filled. You're likely a "physical touch" category, like me. Like your wife, mine was affectionate early on in our relationship, and now not so much. We actually had a similar "discussion" (almost a fight) along the same vein last night that stemmed from a rejection that I was upset about. Also like yours, my wife wants to classify all physical touch under the sex umbrella. We also talked about random acts of affection vs. patterns of affection (kissing before bed, before we leave for work), where I prefer the former she the latter. We got some things hashed out to a further degree (been a rough week for us on that end and connecting mentally and physically) so hopefully we can move on from this. You're needs and desires are not out of the ordinary, and it helps to know there's others fighting for the same thing, really just to be loved and respected by the one we love the most.

  4. I've think all of us OMGs have been in this boat at some point in the relationship, and we've all failed that particular shit-test pretty miserably (or else why the Manosphere?). A few thoughts:


    1. Bravo on your stand, your control, and your even-temperedness. Twice as much for not letting the matter drop when she was done arguing her side. One of the subtleties of the Red Pill marriage is that you have to be more proactive in how you pick your fights, and this was an excellent case-in-point. Our wives are used to getting the last word on a subject, and they're used to us folding like a cheap pair of jeans the moment they let us know that they are done arguing. Usually the emotion in the response is enough to send a Blue Pill dude into the man cave. That has to change.

    2. Excellent acknowledgement of your own sense of love and emotional need. You're right, this is often considered a "feminine trait", but the fact is we all feel both love and the desire to be loved, and there is nothing unmanly about that. The fact that we are better at compartamentalizing our emotional life in favor of getting shit done doesn't mean we don't have an emotional life -- just that we don't have to wear it around like a t-shirt. Don't be ashamed, afraid, or skittish about the fact that you are a very passionate man, embrace it. You will be stronger for it.

    3. BJs are important. Don't let her tell you otherwise. They are to men what a dozen red roses are to women, a tangible sign of indulgence and appreciation. You are perfectly in the right to ask for them and to expect them upon occasion. Same for HJs.

    4. Whenever she refers to the generic "sex thing", call her ass on it. Stop her and ask for clarification. Make her spell out what she means by that explicitly. If she means the fact that you want more sex and better sex and she doesn't, then make her spell it out so that there are no misunderstandings. Do NOT let her trivialize it in discussion. Of course she's uncomfortable with it -- it's probably her worst subject -- but that doesn't mean she doesn't need to face the fact that there is an issue, and it revolves around her inattentiveness, not because you're a sex fiend.

    5. "Issues from her past" . . . that very well could be affecting her libido. But at this point she's had _________ years to recover from those experiences, and most adults learn how to cope with such traumas eventually. If she's using it as a sweeping reason to shut you up for fear of emotionally hurting her, don't let her. That's emotional blackmail. Instead, when she does that, insist that you discuss the "issues from the past" in detail, so that you can properly understand them. You may, of course, spark an emotional melt-down and fight, but don't let that dissuade you. This shit isn't going away until you fix it. If she is making no effort to overcome her difficulties, then that's a PROBLEM. Strongly encourage her to do so -- "I just don't know what kind of future we can have together . . . I figured that you'd overcome that by now, and it's just getting frustrating." If you have to, research a good counselor specializing in sexual abuse and make her go. Force her to face the issue . . . because IT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU, AND THEREFORE IMPORTANT TO THE MARRIAGE. Make certain she understands how resolute you are.

  5. PART TWO:
    6. Don't mistake her Hamster for a real ultimatum. Her Hamster is doing everything it can to shake you off, because you are consistently bringing up the sex problems and she can't let that be HER fault. So it's yours. Or that's what the Hamster says. Expect a fight, expect some emotion, expect some blowback and threats and ultimatums, but stand your ground. In the end, it's highly unlikely that she'd end the marriage herself over it, she's just going to fight you until one of you gives up.

    In the near term, expect a token effort to show you she cares, sexually (probably this weekend) with her initiating, but then that will assuage her conscience and y'all will be right back where you started. Hamster's mission accomplished.

    Conversely, she'll try to freeze you out in the hopes that you break, apologize, and assure her that you won't make her feel bad ever again. Since that's just silly, don't. Hold your ground. Wait her out. It's like dealing with a kid throwing a tantrum, the only way to handle it sometimes is to wait it out. When the kid realizes he isn't going to get his way, he backs down, leaving you dominant. Don't back down, stay dominant, and in this regard treat her like she has a medical condition that is beyond her control. If you try to make it personal, she'll take that and run with it. But if you are firmly acting out of husbandly concern over this apparently severe emotional illness, then it ISN'T her fault (to her hamster's mind) and trying to make it personal will just make her feel guilty. Just imagine her "sex issue" is a tumor you have to shrink, or some other physical illness, and get her the help and treatment she needs. Either she will eventually welcome the counseling, or she will admit that maybe she was just using it as a rationalization to keep from doing anything she didn't feel like.

    7. Start asking for BJs and HJs on a regular occasion. Don't be a dick when she says no, but MAKE her say no, and then start counting up the number of rejections you get for this over a few month's time. Soon just asking will make her squirm, because when it's clear you aren't going anywhere and still want a blowjob, she's going to have to find some other rationalization why she can't manage something it seems every college freshman could do professionally these days. Don't stop asking for other kids of sex, but don't let the issue die the way she wants it to.

    8. Keep running the MAP, Gaming her, and blogging. It's good therapy, and it helps keep you honest about running the MAP. It will also drive her nuts that there's a sexual issue between you, yet you don't seem to have any problem continuing to buff up and attract female attention. Don't waste the progress you've made in regular sex evaporate by obsessing on this issue, but don't let it die. Once she realizes that this is going to be a daily discussion until the matter is handled, she'll probably give up and start working with you.

    9. STAY POSITIVE. We all hit potholes along the Red Pill path, all the time. Just remember the goal here, and stay on mission. Calm, cool, collected, and in control. If that's what she encounters in the face of her inevitable emotional outburst, then she'll stop. She's looking for sympathy and contrition, and if all she gets is patient indulgence and positively husbandly concern, she'll have to change tactics.

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    10. When she says crap like "If you are unhappy, maybe you need to make a change", she's trying to goad you into contrition because (in her mind) she's threatened the relationship by inviting you to leave. Thing is, it's a ruse. She knows it and you know it. Instead of dancing around the issue of an affair or a divorce, just laugh. Yep, laugh. Then tell her something along the lines of:

    "I am making a change. But I've got too much invested in this marriage to jump ship, and I don't have the time, money, and energy necessary to cultivate a proper mistress. So if you think these little tantrums are going to make me feel guilty, you're wrong. And if you think that they're going to force me into a secret affair, then you're wrong about that too. And if you think that you're going to scare me into backing down by threatening a divorce, then you go ahead and threaten . . . because I don't think you've got the balls to go in front of a judge and an open court and explain why you just can't manage one simple thing that most other women master before they're 20. So yes, I'm unhappy about this, but you don't sell the truck when it's broken, you fix the truck when it's broken.

    "So if you think that you can try to bully me out of this relationship over this issue, think again. It's going to take a lot more than that to get me to leave. Your choice is to figure out some way to cope with this issue, or live with me for the next twenty years buying you fucking lip balm every day for the rest of your life to remind you how you almost had a happy marriage."

    Use the above as you see fit. It might be a little harsh at this stage, but it's all about controlling the frame. Her frame is "If I tell him there's no fucking way that I'll do it, he'll leave me alone for fear of pissing me off." She doesn't leave any room for progress in her frame. Your frame should be the option "You can keep playing this excuse game as long as you want, but I'm not going to go away or shut up about it. You'll either fix it now or fix it later, but it WILL be fixed because I refuse to acknowledge any other potential outcome."

    Good luck -- and keep us posted!

  8. Thanks for writing your story. Mine is very similar. It really helps to know I'm not unique. I look forward to seeing how things go for you. And. Ow I need to fugue out how to start my own blog to make me accountable to make the changes needed in my own life.

  9. Also a thanks from me. Your story is a carbon of mine (except the size issue!) and I appreciate your openness and willingness to lay it out for us. I couldn't have said it better! Keep up the good work! Ironwood's comments are excellent! I will put them to good use myself!

  10. What about if when she says "there's no fucking way that I'll do it", THAT is EXACTLY what she means, in so many words, neither more nor less? Then what?

  11. Thank you...THIS IS MY LIFE TO THE "T", Game on "baby"

  12. Thank you for this post. Your situation mirrors mine in many ways. It's great to heart from someone going through the same thing .

    I also appreciate Ian's comment as well. A great way to handle a shit test. I may need to use it soon.

    Thanks again.

  13. I guess no one has an answer to what you do if "there's no fucking way that I'll do it" is the final offer from her, then?

    Thought not.

  14. Then theres "no FUCKING way i'll treat you like my wife if you can't be arsed to treat me like your husband." Thermostat right down, while maintaining all the things you need to do to remain a functional adult/father. Marriage is a two-way contract. Identify the things you do for her 'just because,' and replace them with something that benefits the MAP, and do something for you instead.

    Don't let her buy 'Husband' when all she's prepared to offer is 'lazy roommate who doesn't give a shit about your wellbeing.'

  15. Thing is, there's fuck-all anywhere in any marriage ceremony or anything that says BJ's are a guaranteed thing that she absolutely HAS to give, no questions asked, to fulfill the role of wife. Did I miss something in the wording?

  16. The answer is as follows:

    If you don't want to blow me, then baby fuck off.

  17. Anon wrote:

    > what you do if "there's no fucking way that I'll do it" is the final offer from her?


    Who gets to frame what the discussion, and the marriage, is about?

    Here, Wife is acting as if that isn't even an issue. *Of course* W does the framing. Because she's the woman. Or because she's her. Or because she's the low-desire partner.

    That last one was the implicit rationale that I got/get from Mrs. mgwk. The subtext being, go ahead and coerce me into having sex with you when I don't want to, ew. So how do you like it?

    So take control of the frame. I think CantBeJustMe is getting at that in the post, and Ian Ironwood is, in the comments.

    When you got married, the contract included affection and sex, both as a two-way street. Now W is acting like a sleazy used-car salesperson, trying to change the deal without the other party noticing. Sure, she doesn't see it that way. Run, hamster, run. But that's sure what it looks like from here.

    Well, if *one* party gets to unilaterally change the terms, then *so does the other party*. I told Mrs. mgwk, "you can continue your withdrawal of affection and sex; I can't stop you. But don't expect that the other parts of the marriage that you like are going to continue, undisturbed. No longer."

    If she claims that there are no "other parts" that she values, then you'd better ask yourself: why exactly are you two together, from her point of view? Ask her, for that matter.

    Mrs. mgwk realized that her position was a lot weaker than she'd thought. Silly me for letting her run the show, all these years. I won't claim that affection and sex are now great, but they are heading in the right direction. For me, part of the MAP is letting her figure out that an emotionally-numb marriage isn't in her best interests, that she'd be better off following my lead in this. Taking back the reins helps open up that possibility.

  18. Guy in a similar situationJune 29, 2012 at 6:00 AM

    I was absolutely in the same boat and had the same discussions with my wife where she would lump it all into "the sex thing." I told her there was nothing wrong with me and that I was providing "husband" and that I expected her to provide "wife." But nothing changed for more than a few days at a time.

    Eventually, we had a blow up fight (which started over nothing) and I left. I packed a bag and I slept at a hotel. I'd never done this before. I completely expected that our marriage was over. I'd "checked out," but she convinced me that now she would change. Perhaps foolishly, I believed her and came back.

    But it turned out to not be foolish. It's been a few months now and things have never been better.

    Still a good deal of improvements to make, but we went from sex that could be measured on one hand _maybe_ two per *year* up to probably 15x/week for a few weeks and now back down to a more maintainable 3-4x/week. "And it's not just sex," the affection is back, and she's finally been facing some childhood issues that had been affecting our marriage. Things are looking better on all fronts.

    Stay strong. Recognize that you may need to *actually* leave before it will really hit home. Good luck!

  19. Anybody home? C'mon, update us! What's going on?